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ABOUT BC LAWS AND HOW THEY AFFECT OTHER BC
includes property law
These are some BC laws that affect other BC
Make a comment using the form at the bottom of this page regarding BC Laws. Your comments will be posted to this website
What would it be like if we had only one law and one law only? As long as
your not hurting anyone or anything! People would understand that one law
and not need a lawyer now would they?
"This means that only some people in our society
can actually exercise the legal rights that should apply to everyone.”
An Okanagan Legal Blog
marijuana use at work poses challenges for employers:
ctvnews.ca - The Canadian Press -
September 19, 2015
TORONTO -- As medical marijuana gains traction as a
treatment option for a host of conditions including
chronic pain and other conditions, Canadian employers
could find themselves grappling with a sticky issue.
"Individuals have the right to equal treatment ...
without discrimination on the grounds of disability,"
says Jan Robinson, managing principal at human resources
firm Morneau Shepell.
"Medical cannabis now needs to be viewed like every
other doctor-prescribed drug."
But although employers have a duty to accommodate
workers' medical conditions, experts say that duty must
be balanced with the need to keep the workplace safe.
That can be challenging, especially if employees perform
duties such as operating machinery.
"There's no hard or fast rule to this," says Natalie
MacDonald, an employment lawyer and the co-founder of
Rudner MacDonald LLP. "It's got to be determined on a
case-by-case basis -- as most things in employment law
Experts says the duty to accommodate comes with an
important caveat -- it must not result in undue hardship
for the employer.
While there is no strict definition of what constitutes
undue hardship, MacDonald says the courts will consider
a number of factors including how much financial
difficulty the company would endure and whether
accommodating the employee would compromise workplace
"A small organization that has to incur serious
financial hardship as a result of trying to accommodate
an employee may cross the test of undue hardship,"
A recent decision issued by the British Columbia Human
Rights Tribunal illustrates some of the limits that
apply to the employer's responsibility to accommodate
The Tribunal ruled in July that B.C.-based Selkin
Logging did not violate John French's human rights by
refusing to allow the logging contractor to use
marijuana while on the job.
The company, which has a "zero tolerance" policy on
marijuana use, had argued that it did not discriminate
against French based on his use of cannabis to handle
the symptoms of cancer, but rather was concerned about
In addition, French was not authorized by Health Canada
to possess medical marijuana, although he claimed he was
using the drug to ease cancer-related pain as per his
doctors' recommendations, according to court documents.
MacDonald says that if French had proper medical
documentation, the outcome of the case may have been
different. However, safety concerns still need to be
taken into account, she adds.
One alternative way to accommodate a worker's needs
would be to provide the worker with a leave of absence
until the medical issue is resolved, MacDonald said.
"In some cases, it may be that the employee needs to be
provided with alternative forms of work that don't
attract any particular safety concerns," MacDonald said.
As cannabis becomes a more popular treatment choice --
Health Canada has estimated there could be nearly half a
million users by 2024 -- the issue is likely to start
cropping up at workplaces across the country.
"We are starting to recognize that this trend will
commence very shortly across Canada," said Robinson,
noting that Morneau Shepell has been advising its
clients to review their existing drug and alcohol
policies to ensure they are adequate.
"If they don't look at their drug policies now, they may
have issues in the future," she said.
Hergott: Breast baring limitations not legally clear
By Paul Hergott - Kelowna Capital News - August
Credit for this week’s column topic goes to local Internet
phenomenon, Lori Welbourne, who produces an edgy talk radio show
every Wednesday night called “On the Rocks” with co-hosts Jason Rock
and Stuntman Steve. The show comes with the alluring warning: “On
The Rocks contains mature and sexual subject matter, listener
discretion is advised”.
One of the Internet headline topics of discussion this week was 19
year old model, Cheyenne Lutek, who tested the limits of New York
City’s recently relaxed laws regarding partial nudity by slipping
off her blouse in a trendy restaurant. She was escorted out by
management, but later posed topless with two New York City police
officers who have been directed not to cite topless women for public
lewdness or indecent exposure.
To prepare for the show, Lori posted the topic on facebook asking
about the legality of baring breasts in Kelowna. I couldn’t resist
doing a little research.
What would happen if you were to bare your breasts in public in
Kelowna? In 1906, you might have spent time in jail. When looking
for by-laws on the subject on the City of Kelowna website I came
upon this piece of history: “"1906 - Kelowna City Council passed a
bylaw and instructed the presiding Chief of Police, William Brent,
to prohibit nude bathing in Okanagan Lake between 6 a.m. – 9 p.m.
Skinny-dippers were fined $100 or sentenced to 30 days in jail!"
The only current City of Kelowna by-laws I could find, related to
breasts, have to do with the circumference of trees. I was
interested to learn that tree circumference is measured at breast
height. It’s a defined term: “Circumference at Breast Height” (CBH
for short). Imagine that. In the context of women’s breasts, does
that strike you as problematic? Is it unrestrained or brassiered
breasts, for example?
The municipality of Maple Ridge passed a by-law in 1997 requiring
“females over the age of eight (8) years” to “fully cover all
portions of their nipples and aureole with opaque apparel”. The
by-law was passed in specific response to Linda Meyer’s declaration
that she would be baring her breasts in a public leisure centre.
Linda disregarded the by-law and was charged. The court hearing the
matter declared the by-law void because a municipality does not have
jurisdiction to create by-laws that fall within the gamut of
Criminal law is an exclusively federal (Canada wide) matter, and is
contained within the Criminal Code. Public nudity provisions in the
Criminal Code do not specifically name body parts. Instead,
offending the Criminal Code requires offending “public decency”.
Whether or not public decency is offended depends on what the
“community standard of tolerance” is.
Ms. Meyer’s bold assertion that she would go bare-breasted was no
doubt inspired by legal developments in Ontario the previous year. A
1996 Ontario Court of Appeal decision found that while most women
might choose not to be bare-breasted in public, it is not something
that offends the “community standard of tolerance”. The decision
resulted in the acquittal of Ms. Gwen Jacob who had been criminally
charged and fined $75.00 for removing her shirt.
You might find this odd, but
court decisions in other
provinces are not automatically binding in British Columbia. They
are persuasive, though, particularly when they come from a court of
appeal. If I “had a pair” in the female context, I
would feel very confident that I could dangle them on the streets of
Kelowna without risk of a criminal conviction.
I doubt that this clarification about the law will result in the
mass display of women’s nude breasts in Kelowna, but I wonder if it
might reduce the frowns of disapproval that seem to crop up when a
mother attaches her baby’s mouth to that supposedly offensive part
of her anatomy in public?
|Changes coming to BC’s Limitation Act
We’re contacting you today to let you know about a new piece of
legislation, the Limitation Act, which comes into effect on June 1
and replaces BC’s current Limitation Act, which dates back to 1975.
While this is not a law administered by Consumer Protection BC (it’s
administered by the Ministry of Justice), we thought it was
important to send you information because the new Act will affect
the amount of time a claimant has to initiate a civil lawsuit (for
example, this would include a party’s ability to sue on a debt
For basic information about the key changes in the new Limitation
Act, please visit the
Ministry of Justice website or consult the
Ministry of Justice’s Q&A document. If you require further
assistance understanding how the new Limitation Act may impact you,
you may wish to consider seeking legal advice.
Q: What does the new Limitation Act apply to?
The new Act will govern how long a person has to bring a civil
lawsuit if no other statute contains a specific time period.
Where another more specific law sets a limitation period, that
specific limitation period applies rather than the defaults
contained in the new Act. (For example, the Civil Forfeiture Act
sets a 10-year limitation period to apply to the court for a
Q: What are the key changes in the new Limitation Act?
Moving from multiple basic limitation periods based on the type
of legal action, to a single two-year basic limitation period for
all civil claims. Exceptions to this are civil claims that enforce a
monetary judgment, exempted claims and actions that have limitation
periods set by other statutes. A single basic limitation period
simplifies the law, eliminates uncertainty over which limitation
period applies and ensures that individuals pursue their legal
claims within a reasonable time period after discovering the right
to bring an action.
The two-year basic limitation period will start to run once a
plaintiff “discovers” his or her legal claim.
Moving from a general 30-year ultimate limitation period and
six-year medical ultimate limitation period to a single 15-year
ultimate limitation period that applies to all claims.
Changing the commencement of the ultimate limitation period from
an “accrual” model to a model that starts the clock running based on
an “act or omission.”
The changes to the duration and commencement of the ultimate
limitation period provide significantly more certainty to
determining when liability begins and ends.
Transition rules that explain how the new Act applies to
plaintiffs who have pre-existing claims.
|*Note* This is only a snippet, please
click link below for entire content
Burnaby (City) v. Oh,
2011 BCCA 222
 The appellant’s other complaint on the issue of trial fairness
is that she did not have access to legal
assistance. However, there is no general right to
state-funded legal aid in either the administrative or civil
settings: P.D. v. British Columbia, 2010 BCSC 290 at para. 70.
 What has been said in the case authorities on trial fairness
and the obligations placed on trial judges when there is an
unrepresented litigant is of assistance in considering the
appellant’s arguments. In Davids v. Davids,  O.J. No. 3930,
125 O.A.C. 375 at para. 36, the Ontario Court of Appeal said the
following under the heading “Was the trial so unfair as to result in
a miscarriage of justice?”:
 ... The fairness of this trial is not measured by comparing the
appellant’s conduct of his own case with the conduct of that case by
a competent lawyer. If that were the measure of fairness, trial
judges could only require persons to proceed to trial without
counsel in those rare cases where an unrepresented person could
present his or her case as effectively as counsel.
Fairness does not demand that the
unrepresented litigant be able to present his case as effectively as
a competent lawyer. Rather, it demands that he have a fair
opportunity to present his case to the best of his ability. Nor does
fairness dictate that the unrepresented litigant have a lawyer’s
familiarity with procedures and forensic tactics. It does require
that the trial judge treat the litigant fairly and attempt to
accommodate unrepresented litigants’ unfamiliarity with the process
so as to permit them to present their case. In doing so, the
trial judge must, of course, respect the rights of the other party.
 In Ridout v. Ridout, 2006 MBCA 59, leave to appeal ref’d 
1 S.C.R. xiv, the Manitoba Court of Appeal noted, at para. 12, that
self-represented litigants do not have “some kind of special
status”. At para. 13, the Court said:
The trial judge cannot become the advocate for
the unrepresented litigant, nor can the judge provide legal advice.
However, the judge’s challenge is to take pains to ensure that a
party’s lack of legal training does not unduly prejudice his or her
ability to participate meaningfully in the proceeding.
 A review of the steps taken in the court below demonstrates
that the appellant was able to understand the procedural
requirements of the proceedings taken against her, including filing
an Amended Statement of Defence, filing affidavits, and arguing her
case before both Justice Goepel and Justice Greyell. The proceedings
taken against the appellant by the City were not of a complex nature
and the appellant, as a realtor, could be expected to be aware that
zoning bylaws impose limitations on the use of property.
 In view of the circumstances described above, I am of the view
that no effect ought to be given to the appellant’s arguments that
she had an unfair trial.
Liberties Association says free speech protected by recent court
VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980) - 10/19/2011
The BC Civil Liberties Association is heralding a decision from
Canada's top court, which they say protects free speech on the
The Supreme Court of Canada has ruled hyperlinking is not the same
as publishing, and therefore can never be defamatory.
The BCCLA intervened in the case.
Their lawyer, Roy Millen, says the ruling ensures access to
information isn't compromised.
He says, "even if you say you think it's right, or even if you say
you agree with it, then the hyperlinker is not going to be libel."
The case was brought forward by a former Green party campaign
manager, who launched several libel actions against Google, Myspace
and even Wikipedia.
[RSBC 1996] CHAPTER 238
This Act is Current to March 31, 2010
Effect of private Acts
6 A provision in a private Act does not affect the rights of any
person, except only as referred to or mentioned in that Act.
Enactment always speaking
7 (1) Every enactment must be construed as always speaking.
(2) If a provision in an enactment is expressed in the present
tense, the provision applies to the circumstances as they arise.
8 Every enactment must be construed as being remedial, and must be
given such fair, large and liberal construction and interpretation
as best ensures the attainment of its objects.
Title and preamble
9 The title and preamble of an enactment are part of it and are
intended to assist in explaining its meaning and object.
|Local Government Act
Regional District Liabilities Regulation
[includes amendments up to B.C. Reg. 97/2007, April 20, 2007]
2 Certain types of agreement liabilities exempt
3 Regional park and regional trail borrowing
4 Drinking water protection orders — installation of treatment works
5 Liquid waste management plans
|Local Government; Taxation (Rural Area) Acts
Regional District Tax Regulation
[includes amendments up to B.C. Reg. 336/2008, November 28, 2008]
Relationship between tax rates for different property classes
|Local Government Act; Community Charter
Regional District of Central Okanagan Regulation
[includes amendments up to B.C. Reg. 346/2008, November 28, 2008]
1 Transit service
2 Emergency Programs
3 Health Regulation
3 The Regional District of Central Okanagan is granted the
additional power of Health Regulation under section 523 (1) (a) of
the Local Government Act with respect to regulating persons, their
premises and activities, in order to promote the preservation of
health of all inhabitants of the electoral areas, as an extended
[en. B.C. Reg. 494/94.]
4 Business licensing
5 Regional Crime Prevention
6 Transport Demand Management
8 Intermunicipal scheme respecting businesses
|Local Services Act
[includes amendments up to B.C. Reg. 4/2010, January 14, 2010]
* This is only a snippett, please click link
for entire Act *
Regulations apply where there is no bylaw
1.03 Notwithstanding section 1.01 (b), where a bylaw does not
regulate a matter covered by these regulations, these regulations
apply to that matter.
[en. B.C. Reg. 424/87.]
2.01 The purpose of these regulations is to assist in assuring the
safe, healthful, equitable, efficient, economical and attractive
subdivision of land for the benefit of the community as a whole.
3.01 In these regulations, unless the context otherwise requires:
"approval" means approval in writing from the authority having
"building regulations" means regulation of construction of buildings
by a building code adopted pursuant to the Local Services Act or to
the Building Regulations Division of the Municipal Actą;
1. R.S.B.C. 1960-255
"community water system" means a system of
waterworks which serves 2 or more parcels and which is owned,
operated and maintained by an improvement district under the Water
Act or the Municipal Act, or a regional district, or which is
regulated under the Water Utility Act;
"potable water" means water which is approved for drinking
purposes by the medical health officer in accordance with the Health
4.02 Nothing contained in these regulations shall relieve the owner
of a subdivision from the responsibility to seek out and comply with
the legislation applicable to his undertaking.
Community water systems
4.09 (1) The design of any community water system to serve the
subdivision shall be in accordance with the requirements of any
authority having jurisdiction over the system pursuant to
(a) the Health Act and the Water Utility Act,
(b) the Health Act and the Water Act, when an improvement district
has an applicable subdivision bylaw pursuant to the Water Act, or
(c) the Health Act and the Municipal Act, when a regional district
has an applicable bylaw setting out the terms and conditions of any
extension to its community water system,
as the case may be.
(2) The community water system
approved pursuant to section 4.09 (1) shall be installed as approved
before the subdivision is approved.
(3) Notwithstanding the requirements of section 4.09 (2), a
subdivision may be approved prior to the construction of the
community water system, provided that an arrangement securing
performance of such construction satisfactory to the approving
officer has been made with
(a) the Comptroller of Water Rights (under the Water Utility Act),
(b) an improvement district having an applicable subdivision bylaw
adopted pursuant to the Water Act, or
(c) a regional district having an applicable bylaw setting out the
terms and conditions of any extension to its community water system,
as the case may be, but in no case
shall the subdivision be approved before the plans for the community
water system have been approved.
4.11 Where a community water
system is to be installed in a subdivision, a supply of potable
water adequate to serve the subdivision shall be proven before
the subdivision is approved.
"potable water" means water which is approved for drinking
purposes by the medical health officer in accordance with the Health
Access to navigable waters
5.06 When a subdivision borders on the shore of navigable waters,
access shall be given in accordance with the requirements of the
Land Title Act.
[RSBC 1996] CHAPTER 238
This Act is Current to March 24, 2010
* These are just snippets
1 In this Act, or in an enactment:
"Act" means an Act of the Legislature, whether referred to as a statute, code or
by any other name, and, when referring to past legislation, includes an
ordinance or proclamation made before 1871, that has the force of law;
"regulation" means a regulation, order, rule, form, tariff of costs or fees,
proclamation, letters patent, commission, warrant, bylaw or other instrument
(a) in execution of a power conferred under an Act, or
(b) by or under the authority of the Lieutenant Governor in Council,
but does not include an order of a court made in the course of an action or an
order made by a public officer or administrative tribunal in a dispute between 2
or more persons;
2 (1) Every provision of this Act applies to every enactment, whether enacted
before or after the commencement of this Act, unless a contrary intention
appears in this Act or in the enactment.
(2) The provisions of this Act apply to this Act.
(3) Nothing in this Act excludes the application to an enactment of a rule of
construction applicable to it and not inconsistent with this Act.
29 In an enactment:
"acquire" means to obtain by any method and includes accept, receive, purchase,
be vested with, lease, take possession, control or occupation of, and agree to
do any of those things, but does not include expropriate;
"dispose" means to transfer by any method and includes assign, give, sell,
grant, charge, convey, bequeath, devise, lease, divest, release and agree to do
any of those things;
"electoral district" means an electoral district referred to in section 18 of
the Constitution Act;
"government" or "government of British Columbia" means Her Majesty in right of
"property" includes any right, title, interest, estate or claim to or in
"regional district" means a regional district as defined in the Local Government
"right" includes a power, authority, privilege and licence;
Citation includes amendments
32 In an enactment a reference to another enactment of the Province or of Canada
is a reference to the other enactment as amended, whether amended before or
after the commencement of the enactment in which the reference occurs.
Government bound by enactments; exception
14 (1) Unless it specifically provides otherwise, an enactment is binding on the
(2) Despite subsection (1), an enactment that would
bind or affect the government in the use or development of land, or in the
planning, construction, alteration,
servicing, maintenance or use of improvements, as
defined in the Assessment Act,
does not bind or affect the government.
Definitions in Community Charter and Local Government Act apply to other
40 (1) So far as the terms defined can be applied, the definitions established
by or applicable under
(a) the schedule to the Community Charter, and
(b) section 5 of the Local Government Act
extend to all enactments relating to municipal and regional district matters.
(2) As an exception, subsection (1) does not apply in relation to the definition
of "municipality" in the Community Charter.
44 If an enactment provides that another enactment applies, it applies with the
necessary changes and so far as it is applicable.
Constitution Acts, 1867 to 1982 *snippetts*
IV. LEGISLATIVE POWER
Constitution of Parliament of Canada
17. There shall be One Parliament for Canada, consisting of the
Queen, an Upper House styled the Senate, and the House of Commons.
Privileges, etc., of Houses
18. The privileges, immunities, and powers to be held, enjoyed, and
exercised by the Senate and by the House of Commons, and by the
members thereof respectively, shall be such as are from time to time
defined by Act of the Parliament of Canada, but so that any Act of
the Parliament of Canada defining such privileges, immunities, and
powers shall not
confer any privileges,
immunities, or powers exceeding those at the passing of such Act
held, enjoyed, and exercised by the Commons House of Parliament of
United Kingdom of
Great Britain and
Ireland, and by the
First Session of the Parliament of Canada
Money Votes; Royal Assent
Appropriation and Tax Bills
53. Bills for appropriating any Part of the Public Revenue, or for
imposing any Tax or Impost, shall originate in the House of Commons.
Property Law Act
[RSBC 1996] CHAPTER 377
Law and Equity Act
[RSBC 1996] CHAPTER 253
This Act is Current to March 17, 2010
Application of English law in British Columbia
2 Subject to section 3, the Civil and Criminal Laws of England, as they existed
on November 19, 1858, so far as they are not from local circumstances
inapplicable, are in force in British Columbia, but those laws must be held to
be modified and altered by all legislation that has the force of law in British
Columbia or in any former Colony comprised within its geographical limits.
Laws not in force in British Columbia
3 Section 28 of the Offences Against the Person Act, 1828 and all sections of
the Real Property Act, 1845 are not in force in British Columbia.
These are just some of the UK Laws we found
Not sure that these laws are applicable or not, but might be worth
Paymaster General Act 1848 (c.55)
Indictable Offences Act 1848 (c.42)
House of Lords Costs Taxation Act 1849 (repealed) (c.78)
Judicial Factors Act 1849 (c.51)
Sequestration Act 1849 (c.67)
Court of Session Act 1850 (c.36)
50. Parties may choose their own jury.
Piracy Act 1850 (c.26)
Landlord and Tenant Act 1851 (c.25)
COURT OF CHANCERY ACT 1851 (c. 83) (c.83)
High Peak Mining Customs and Mineral Courts Act 1851
Criminal Justice Administration Act 1851 (c.55)
Crown Lands Act 1851 (c.42)
21. Commissioners of Works, &c. to perform the duties formerly performed by
Evidence Act 1851 (c.99)
School Sites Act 1852 (c.49)
School Sites Act 1849 (c.49)
Commissioners of Works Act 1852 (c.28)
Entail Amendment Act 1853 (c.94)
Entail Amendment Act 1848 (c.36)
Heirs, Creditors, Executor, Private Roads, Improvements, Trust, Lease, Bond,
Rent, Estate, Debts, Land, Minors, Guardians, Forfeiture, Life Rents,
Evidence Amendment Act 1853 (c.83)
Public Revenue And Consolidated Fund Charges Act 1854 (c.94)
Lands Valuation (Scotland) Act 1854 (c.91)
Inclosure Act 1854 (c.97)
Fencing, Road, and Land
Inclosure Act 1852 (c.79)
Inclosure Act 1849 (c.83)
Easements, Chief Rents, Fishing, Sale of Land, Parishes, Title
Inclosure Commissioners Act 1851 (c.53)
Common Law Procedure Act 1854
Common Law Procedure Act 1852 (c.76)
Tenant, Landlord, Non-payment of Rent
Defence Act 1854
Medical Act of 1858
School Grants Act 1855
Can you believe it, there is an Apology Act.
[SBC 2006] CHAPTER 19
Assented to May 18, 2006
Supreme Court of Canada Decisions Database
Supreme Court Decisions Database
BC Provincial Court Decisions Database
Homeless Have the Right to Camp Out in a Park
In the Supreme Court of BC
Victoria (City) v. Adams
Dec 9, 2009
July 30, 2009
April 3, 2009
Sept 8, 2008
Oct 14, 2008
Loss of Legal Aid diminishes our rights
Kelowna Capital News - February 11, 2010
To the editor:
Having read the Feb. 7 edition of the Capital News (No Day in Court)
I am again reminded that our current legal system has gone far
The recognition and protection of fundamental human rights in this
country goes back well beyond the formation of this country. For
example, the Magna Carta expressed the recognition of many of these
fundamental principles. In particular, and with reference to your
lead story, Article 40 states: “To none will we sell, to none deny
or delay, right or justice.” Yet, here we are in a system that
forces an individual to pay for right or justice.
It’s quite ironic when you realize that, if you are dealing with a
government entity (like the Canada Revenue Agency for example),
their legal counsel is the Department of Justice, another arm of
government. And you, as a taxpayer, are paying, through your taxes,
towards the salaries of their lawyers. So, in effect, you are paying
them to go to court against you and you have to pay for your own
legal counsel too.
So what happened along the way? Why is our legal system designed
this way? Why must one be forced to seek legal counsel to resolve
Simply put, we have forgotten who we are as human beings. And
although we are brought up to believe we have rights, when it comes
down to it, do you really know what they are? Growing up, we are not
taught at home or in school about the concept of rights and freedoms
as they apply to us as individuals in society. We know we have them
but, how does one go about exercising them, or defending oneself, if
one doesn’t know what they are?
Have you ever read a law or statute? If you ever attempted it, you
would quickly find that the language is very difficult for the
average individual (even some legal professionals) to comprehend. I
believe our legal/justice system has evolved to where our laws are
written this way so we are literally forced to seek legal counsel to
resolve our issues.
Why should it be this way? Why can’t our laws and legal system be
designed so the ordinary citizen can defend him or herself? Is it
complacency or laziness on our part or has our society been molded
so that the knowledge and awareness of who we are as human beings,
and the rights and freedoms we inherently possess, have been
intentionally suppressed until we cannot defend ourselves without
paying someone else to do it for us?
Never doubt the ability of a small group of concerned
citizens to change the world. In fact, it is the only thing that ever has.
If you have comments, ideas, solutions, concerns or complaints regarding the law
and legal system you can try contacting your B.C., or Canada government, but
don't expect them to listen. You may as well be talking to the wall.
Other than that you may make a comment by filling out the form below and/or comment directly to the
Government of B.C.
Government of Canada
If this form does not work please,
View comments here.
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On okanaganlakebc.ca you will find
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located near and around Okanagan Lake. We will be adding to this site, so come back and
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